18 June 2025
01:02:02
Stephen Murphy
OVERVIEW:
Curly Steve and Stephen Murphy discuss the impact of home energy use on the UK's carbon emissions, which accounts for 20%. Stephen, a low carbon energy advisor, emphasizes the importance of insulation, particularly loft and solid wall insulation, and the benefits of heat pumps over traditional heating systems. He highlights the role of Community Energy Plus in guiding homeowners through retrofitting processes, including grants and financing options like the Boiler Upgrade Scheme. Stephen also stresses the need for proper ventilation and moisture control during retrofits. The conversation concludes with practical tips for reducing energy use and the importance of starting the retrofitting journey.TOPICS
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according to the government's 2023 figures home energy use accounts for around 20% of the UK's carbon emissions From installation to electrification the choices we make at home are shaping the climate story Today
we're digging into what really makes a difference Hi I'm Curly Steve and we're searching for a greener room [Music]
Steven Murphy helps people make sense of the mess As a lowcarbon energy adviser he spends his days helping households cut emissions save energy and navigate the chaos of grants upgrades and choices Today we talk about what really works
and what doesn't and what carbon means in the context of our home Hi Stephen welcome to the show Thanks for having me Steve It's great to be here So tell me you uh grew up in South Africa Tell me a little bit about that Um yeah quite a interesting upbringing Uh I was kind of
on that transition phase of coming out of apartheide So um we went from that kind of uh you know very much within a very oppressive apartite um uh life where as a kid you're just living your life and you know thinking that this is just the way the world works and then
everything gets flipped on its head and you're kind of looking through um have to see everything through a completely different prism Um quite a interesting place socially to be um living through that Um but also you know being in Durban really nice beaches uh great
surrounds lots of nature everywhere just so so so green Um you know anywhere you go it's trees and monkeys and birds and like lots of wildlife everywhere So we sort of grew up just surrounded by by nature all the time Really good waves We
were talking about this earlier Yeah that must be quite quite a sort of um the ying and the yang there the the apartheid on one side and the nature on the other Um did you but you didn't you say you didn't sort of notice it massively as a child or um not massively I mean I would have been uh old sort of
12 13 in the transitionary period like just starting to become aware of the world and you know how it was all shaped um and uh you know stayed control of media and all aspects of your life um kind of very much controlled what you were able to understand about the world and what you couldn't uh my parents
weren't um massive activists uh so uh I suppose I wasn't so aware of uh a lot of the atrocities and stuff what that was going on And then uh you know growing up in a world where everything's been turned on its head and everything's different and you're trying to you know
realign ideologies and kind of thing was yeah quite you know it's only as you get older you start to unpack a lot of the stuff as well Yeah I can imagine I can imagine So tell me about your surfing journey When did that start Um well Duran I used to body surf a body board
actually Um and you know you'd just be down the beach most weekends It was kind of just where life happened Um I mean mostly being too hot Yeah Um it's really easy surfing in and Durban because you just walk to the end of the pier and then you jump off and you're at back line And you're talking quality
surf over there aren't you I mean how does it compare to British All you have to do to get a good wave is arrive early right So before the easterly start coming in at about 7 So you get to the beach for about half five there's a wave And many people um uh not not then and surfing was a lot less popular It's kind
of you know nowadays it'll it'll be a lot more busy Um especially considering how you know you just jump off the pier back line catch a 4ft barrel and then you could either get out and walk back along the pier jump the back line or there's a rip next to the pier which I've actually made it out without having
to do anything Yeah for sure Like sat on my board and just pulled me to the side pull out the back line and just jump back on And what about sort of other waves around along that coast You've got sort of Jeffrey's Bay there known as one of the longest right-hand waves in the world Yeah Yeah It's um I mean it's not
just down the road you know we're talking a thousand miles Is it is it that far Is it right Okay Yeah it is quite far It's a big country What what people don't do with the UK is overlay the size of the UK to the size of South Africa They sort of tend to look at then you know on an A4 page here's the UK and then you can A4 page and look at South Africa Whereas they're vastly different
in scale Um but yeah just yeah all the way you know all the way along that coast you just got really fantastic surf because you got in this kind of open ocean bringing SW in Yeah So yeah places like J Bay um uh the first time we went to J Bay actually we just we were sort
of driving past us then we pulled into just somewhere we didn't really know what it was and we sort of stopped to go and have a look at the waves and there were these massive barrels coming through There was only one surfer out there and he was just getting in these huge like stand up barrels like that and then a pot of dolphins came past and
they were all just coming up and kind of showing him how it's done and surfing next to them and then breaking out the back of the waves before they broke and stuff It was just quite spectacular and it's that real um presence of the power of nature How's how do you feel about the the sharkiness of it because that's quite a sharky area isn't it Yeah I mean
you just it's like you grow up with them and they're just around No one that you know has ever been Well I say that while I was living in Nature's Valley someone did get eaten by a shark in Clintonburg Bay which kind of cleared the water for a while Yeah Um but that was the only experience I'd really known about sharks They like you know what this is a
statistic I have to double check this but I think more people get killed by beach balls Well funny you should say that I I um went on a trip to um before I went to um J Bay I went on a trip to California and it was into the Red Triangle and the Red Trile apparently the most sharkiest area in the world Um
and you know I had very good friends saying to me "Oh yeah enjoy the sharks." Which was very pleasant of them Um but uh they um I did a bit of research and I think you're more likely to get struck by lightning than you are to actually get sort of bitten by a shark So and and when you drive down the Pacific Coast
Highway you're seeing beach after beach after beach with maybe 10 maybe 50 surfers in each beach and this is day in day out And you know there's there's only a couple of attacks per year or something like that So it's you know pretty scary things to be honest If you're you know you're there with just your feet dangling and looking rather
similar to a seal Um they don't want to eat you They kind of taste you and then spit you out because it tastes like rubber Yeah Um and uh I discovered once it was it really is a numbers game There's 10 of you in the water You're like I'm fine And then they all catch a wave in and suddenly your own Yes Yeah Absolutely
Yeah I had that uh I had that once and I was surfing just up up the coast from Durban Um and uh there was a it was a British guy actually He was coming out the water like looking a bit scared and he was like "Oh I've just been surfing I think I saw a fin." And I like don't worry about that I asked the guy in the car No don't worry about it It's fine So I was like "Come let's go back out
again." And then we paddled back out Um you know we're kind of sitting it back out kind of thing And then and then he caught a wave in and suddenly I was like "Oh wait a second I suddenly don't feel now you know went from a 50/50 chance to 100 100% chance that if anyone was going to uh get taken it'd be me." So I
thought you know I wasn't really enjoying it so much anymore Yeah And then uh I caught the next wave in and uh and they went to um you know to have a drink at the local bar whatever and was you know mentioning just I was like so worried about shark they go like yeah there's loads of sharks there's a river
mouth it's a big it's a big collection of like tiger sharks own and they'll have a nibble won't they They'll have a nibble Yeah Yeah they will they're renowned for just basically eating anything Um yeah anything that washes out That's why they like the murky water from the river Yeah just um yeah just have a go So I was um yeah I
was sitting at um at J Bay there and uh I think there was only sort of eight or so people in the water and they' all caught waves in and I was just left out there on my own and uh suddenly all these fish darted past me and I I sort of thought to myself I thought there's a there's a reason why they're they're
running away from something and and sort of I slowly lifted my feet out of the water But um yeah it's uh it's it can be sort of a it you can suddenly get the the old uh get the heart going can't you In that situation Was it was Big Fanning that that it was wasn't it Yeah Cool
Yeah Yeah That was uh I was watching that live Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Oh wow Yeah Okay Yeah So um for those who don't know um Mick Fanning was surfing a heat in the WSL or whatever it was at the time uh surf contest and a shark came
along and he had to punch it on the nose didn't it It was it was quite a moment Yeah Quite a moment in surfing history Came up to come give him a little sniff and he Yeah gave it a pop on the nose Sick So so tell me Stephen you've um you've been working in sustainability for some time now and campaigning and
stuff What's what got you into um sort of the need to uh save the planet Um well as you say when I was like growing up and you're sort of surrounded by nature and you can really feel the power of it in in Africa it's very present It's very it's very much there I
kind of had a sort of alternative ideology that I developed when I was at university Um largely due to one of my lecturers Dennis Pervvis who is quite alternative uh just got me thinking in a different way Uh studying marketing and advertising So we started looking at consumerism and how damaging it was for uh society and environment and um mental
health and those kind of things We got into a lot of ad buster stuff Um and then you had films like Fight Club came out and they talk about you know not your car keys you're not your watch you're not how much money you have in the bank That those kind of ideas uh sort of milling around in my head I was
doing a bit of um that kind of adbusters alternative culture stuff in Durban Um and then I came across to London and I distinctly remember being in the plane and it was quite cloudy and we were coming over and then we just dropped below this low cloud and just saw this expanse
of city and concrete and gray and just you know just the sheer like churning nature of it um really made me realize quite you know you really get a sense of understanding about um how nature's being threatened and and how um you know
the the um consumerous lifestyle of people and that and that can be affecting it when you see it on that kind of scale So so so how long ago did you come to was how long ago was that when you came to 2002 so 20 20 odd years ago Um and that must been quite a
contrast coming from South Africa which is like you say there's lots of wild life everywhere to was it London you went to straight away and you stayed there Straight into London Yeah Yeah Um and yeah I think remember like being excited looking out and then just seeing this expanse It was just as far as I could see It was just city and you know
oh wow yeah this is this is quite something It felt like this sort of churny mess of of people and energy and stuff Um and it's a very different kind of energy isn't it That it's quite a still energy isn't it Up and it's quite sort of lots of concrete lots of not so much green I mean lots of life and culture and you know interesting things
happening I mean you did really enjoy my time there Um but yeah it's you know then you know got involved with a Greenpeace local group and started doing um actions with them uh like the community group actions and then started
doing stuff with the head office got a bit more involved that way and kind of feeling that's the sort of pathway um into sustainability and environmentalism um kind of spent my 20ies in London doing you know all the all the all the big world stuff Mhm Um global policy
international climate talks I spent some time working on COP 17 and COP 15 actually COP 15 was at Copenhagen I was working on that as well What were you actually doing for for those uh events uh COP 15 I was working for Christian Aid and that was they were the first of the global development charities to have
come on board with climate change and saying that basically climate change is a threat to all of our development work Um they were looking at everything that they were doing um all the good work that they were doing essentially being wiped out by uh you know floods and fires and droughts and you know too much rain too little rain too far too cold
like um so they went on board uh quite heavily with that at for the Copenagen Cop and I was kind of brought in I was hired around that time because I had a lot of sustainability and climate change experience I was doing um a lot of the
campaign materials uh for that and then for COP 17 it was in Durban So I had this great opportunity to go back to my hometown and be a host uh to a lot of the you know it's this melting pot of activists and policy experts and um uh heads of state and
that all coming together to talk about environmentalism comments Um yeah such a great experience to get access to so many really interesting and amazing people all at on top of their game Um and all just come together around a shared theme and ideology I mean what was going on in the conference was quite
disturbing as far as it was it was um yeah but a large kind of business hijacking of um of the talks So sort of greenwashing or um I think the thing that's understand about the talks is that the activists
you're constantly going now is the time This is that we have to take action It's it's right now But you're essentially trying to completely reshape your economy So everything we built so far is built on fossil fuels Everything we had like every part of our society is based on fossil fuels And now to say we need
to create an entirely new society that's not based on fossil fuels um is going to take time There's a lot of um entrenched invested interests You know the fossil fuel companies were the most powerful voices You know they had the most money
the most um biggest budgets Um they were the biggest companies Um so then topple them and create this whole new society It's going to it's going to take a lot of time and you're going to have these like inch by inch um uh wins and processes which I feel we we are sort of you know we're slower
than we need to if we want to but the fact that we're going to be able to transform our society so quickly I think is maybe misguided Yeah It doesn't help from a campaigning perspective you're um uh you need the big you need the big ass don't you Like action now We have to solve this Now is the time I think that
was even the that was the phrase of the campaign I was working on was now is the time Yeah But you're not going to achieve that at that meeting And I think a a a human um uh uh quality or not is is that we want everything now We want everything
yesterday So it's difficult when someone comes along and says well actually yeah told is incremental change Yeah Yeah Um you know and we do need fast action and we did need political will I mean you know all of those things but it was unlikely that we were going to actually
get it really fast So what motivates you What keeps pushing you forward Um it's you know I've got two young kids uh Loan and Juniper Lily seven or four Oh great agents Yeah Yeah they're great And you know for them to have a future
uh is really important So I know you know maybe it's a bit of a cliche but um you know really concerned about what life is going to be like for them I think something that worries me is nor the normalization of climate change in the fact that you know I can remember I'm of an age when I remembered when it
you know it was a certain temperature in summer it was a certain temperature when it rained when it needed to rain it was dry when it needed to be dry whereas then they were going to have that experience for them the weather's a mess it's it's too it's too cold you know it's nothing happens when it should happen essentially and you know I do wonder how
it affects your ability to deal with climate change when it's not something different Um and it's probably not something we're going to be able to get back to a normal weather say but we're not going to get back to normal weather anytime soon you know centuries
Um so just a bit unclear as to their understanding of of climate change and how it's affecting them And it's already affecting them already part of the lives Um I guess also talking about the motivations is something that if you do it for a long time things just become normalized Well this is the this is sort
of something that I'm hoping that um by doing these shows by talking about it is people can um can be uh environmental environmentally friendly rather than do environmentally friendly So it's just you wake up in the morning and you do it
You you are it rather than waking up and going "Oh what do I need to do?" You know and being like a rabbit in the headlights You just get up and you and you are one with nature You know you are you know you go for a walk in the woods you do your recycling you compost you buy sustainable food you know you only
fly occasionally These kind of things are just just the way you are It's not like a big pressure like you know look at me I'm an environmentalist that's what I'm doing you're just living your life in the world and it is you know it's a lot easier to do now because a lot of those things have become
mainstream you know we've taken all the lowhanging fruit and we'll talk I'll talk more about that uh when we get into the detail of our work but uh those kind of things are quite easy and streamlined it's it's you know stations are an accepted um thing to do you know people
understand the ideas about not flying everywhere at the drop of a hat So it it does it does get easier Talking about that how do you feel about um contradiction um for example um you know someone taking a flight for a holiday or um there's that uh there's that balance
between um maybe mental health uh and um emotional health and taking a flight to go on holiday or or having a a car to get themselves from A to B um rather than walking because it's maybe too far or so how do you how
do you feel about sort of contradiction Um I really enjoyed what Jake was saying uh in that last com you know previous podcast Yeah About the imperfection of people that we're not perfect We're not perfect beings We exist in an imperfect system Um we you know you can do what you can
and try um to live a sustainable life but you're not always going to get it right Um there are things that you are going to want to do that exist in the world that at the moment have a high carbon content Um you can try and minimize them The biggest thing is going to be flying isn't it Like that's the one Um I was quite heavily involved with
plain stupid I don't know if you come across them way back They were a campaigning group that were the first group to talk take on flying as an issue um the direct action group put it in or their logo and that um media stuff um and they were really you know taken on
the issue of flying and you know bringing into the public domain and it's such a tough one because you want to go on holiday you want to see nice places Those countries need your tourism Yeah And you you can you can go and have a more ethical sustainable holiday Um and there's a lot of countries that
rely on um Guanu doing that Um and you know my family live in South Africa You know they come to visit me So I would you know try and get out to them and you know it's the love miles um I think with flying there's a lot of things that you can tackle before you have to start tackling people's
um um you know the kind of love miles and the holiday miles In fact a lot of business flights are completely unnecessary We found that over co theft um uh meetings over um online Um but yeah I mean I I think I quite like Subarus Yeah Like you know I had a
Forester for absolutely loved it Like you know it's 2 liter turbo engine like it totally in contrast with everything else that goes on in my life Um and that's just the imperfections of people and if we're trying to create an imperfect society we're probably going to fail Yeah because you know so that's sort of
that's a a great sort of bit of information there is is to do as much as you can but not give yourself a hard time with your um you know yeah you can give yourself you know you can you know like a like a you know a thought you know you know that didn't feel that
great you know it was this kind of um how do they call it is it cognitive dissonance is that is that it where you're um able to hold two conflicting views right I I see it on my children all the time They can hold two conflicting views without any issues whatsoever Excellent Um yeah it's Yeah I
mean flying is going to be the really difficult one isn't it It's the one that's always going to be a problem Yeah And uh according to uh our technical officer uh at CU that you know they are the electrification of planes is is going to be a thing that's it's coming isn't it It's coming Yeah apparently So but how how far in the future So hard to fathom the fact that we could get to
that point where you have electric planes Yeah Um but yeah you know and then Okay Well apparently we'll have cars that we can put food into fuel at some state Oh no That's back to the future Maybe Maybe Yeah Yeah We just go back in
time Yeah Tell my previous self Stop being such an idiot Excellent So you've been in Cornwall for several years now and uh you're um you work with the uh Community Energy Plus Tell me a little bit about that and what your role is Um yeah so Community Energy Plus is
uh we're Cornell's uh energy advice charity Uh kind of offer advice to homeowners landlords tenants uh to help with energy efficiency Okay Um and kind of guide them towards a more sustainable future Um a lot of the work that we do the
majority of it deals with pure poverty So there's a lot of people really struggling um especially with a huge rise in energy costs Um really struggling uh with with their bills to stay on top of the energy use um uh you know having difficulty dealing
with suppliers So we help sort of facilitate a lot of those conversations Um we do some grant funding as well So we help people through the grant funding process and uh I work as part of the low carbon team So um the lowcarbon energy network which is a national lottery
community fund project uh working in we're working in collaboration with uh CCAN which is Cornwall climate action network Okay Um and they're a group of organizations uh community based organizations um that are looking to try
and generate transformative change in Cornwall around sustainability and climate change Okay So so you one of your roles is looking at retrofitting right Yeah Explain to me what retrofitting Um so yeah we help help guide people through a rather rather complicated process of
their retrofit journey which is essentially turning your house into a warm comfortable and sustainable space Um it can be quite a complicated process uh because you're looking at um the structure of your house um how the energy is supplied um a lot to do with
um moisture control and ventilation as well which being in Cormal we're we're looking at a whole load of granite houses which I've got 120 year old granite house which um uh sounds wonderful and great and it is but it's sweats it's damp bits cold It's Yeah
Yeah I I remember moving to Cornwall I had these visions of um you know the beautiful rural stone cottage and and now after having worked at CP uh for a number of years um I'm I'm I'm quite glad I've moved into a new build right uh a sort of insulated
uh you know warm ventilated property cuz the thing with Cornwall is is no such thing as a standard property Every everyone is different It's quite complicated trying to figure out what you need to do in order to get it to the point where it is um you know warm
comfortable a nice cozy home that um also doesn't require lots of fossil fuel energy to heat So um so what's the biggest sources of uh carbon emissions in uh the the average home Uh it definitely be heating Okay I think there's uh very few instances where
heating uh isn't the major source of carbon emissions I mean occasionally you might get some medical equipment or something Yeah Which might uh which might be you know you know people have um uh reptile tanks and hot tubs but even that's heating It's still heating Um yeah definitely making sure I think it's about 18% of the UK carbon
emissions are based around heating homes That's a lot right Uh yeah Yeah it is a huge percentage It's a very very important uh part of climate change that we need to tackle is how we heat our hings Um and there are sustainable solutions uh as we look at electric at
um uh the increasing renewable energy supply and decarbonizing the grid Um then there are you know viable options for heating your home using decarbonized electricity So right now what have we got We got coal wood gas electric Yeah Most of it is gas right Yeah most of the
um heat generation comes off gas Although Cornwall because of the high proportion of rural properties is a higher than normal amount of oil Um a surprising amount of people still use coal open fires Um but it's not a it's not a huge you know I was surprised at how many people there were but it's not
a huge um percentage Um so what you do is people are quite accustomed to uh getting their uh heat demand from like essentially a grid So you are getting from an external supply uh rather than having a tank in
your back garden or although that's I would imagine that's quite high in Cornwall as well isn't it Uh oil uh standalone tanks Yeah Yeah that is because we have a have a a large rural population Quite a lot of um yeah and and quite a lot of it off the mains gas grid Um so yeah and that's that's where
a lot of the the government focus is on getting people that are off the mains gas grid because gas is lower um carbon intensity than oil Okay Oil is quite high uh carbon intensity It's I think two to three talent for gases So what they're trying to do and and the gas is um uh I know that's where I'm getting
bit mixed up with my electricity generation from gas Um uh but yes a lot of the focus is around the more rural properties and trying to get them off oil first and then they'll start working on the gas properties Um and I I'm always fairly astonished by um the the
need for heat in the houses at certain times of the year You've got um I I understand in winter you know I I mean I I keep my house at a steady 16° and anything more than that is I'm sort of sweating but all the time water Yeah
Well exactly Yeah And um and uh and I I'll I was brought up in a generation where you put on a jumper or put or put a blanket around you rather than putting the heating on But uh I it does surprise me I have friends who will put the heating on in the middle of the summer
because they're a little bit cold And yeah Yeah people having their homes 30 degrees then it gets too hot so they you know walk around in flipflops and shorts then it gets too hot so they open um open the windows And yeah that kind of behavioral stuff is quite difficult to
to challenge I think I think we've made big strides forward um uh you know when the electricity price just doubles I think a lot of people really got much more aware of um their usage um plus and you know and um an older population does tend to need it to be absolutely
uh maybe less active bit more sedentary um uh less able to regulate uh temperature you do need you do need warmer temperatures And I do I I have to tell my mom every year she's she's in her early 80s I have to tell her every year put your heater on Yeah Because
she's of a generation where she she will sit there a little bit cold before Um but also I just that just reminded me that when I was a student I used to have a a pile of blankets by the front door and people knew that if they came around in the winter that they'd pick up a blanket and we'd all sit you know Well
which also plays into the the the quality of the housing Um because it is it is fairly bad I mean there's um a lot of very very old housing that's bad insulated super drafty still single glazed Um and I do find it quite
surprising for what is meant to be such a wealthy country for the state of the housing to be quite where it's at Yeah Yeah Um I guess maybe in some sort of the Scandinavian countries and that where your temperatures do get so cold they're forced to build good insulated
houses but where the temperature doesn't drop quite that cold it's um yeah as you say you have these old granite properties that are damp and cold and really difficult to heat Yeah So so tell me how do you go about sort
of decarbonizing um the average home What what's the sort of first steps Uh insulate insulate insulate is our is our general mantra is you take a fabric first approach to uh your retrofit journey Um we do like to encourage people to uh really focus
on looking at that as your first step and then once you've insulated a property So so we could rewind back to first insulate yourself put a jumper on Second second insulate yourself put a put a blanket on Third insulate your house So what sort how how do you insulate your house Are we talking um loft insulation Yeah there's there's
various ways you can do it I mean it's essentially uh ceiling you know ceiling walls and floors Um and and floors and windows Floors not so much I mean floors are a hell of a job Just be honest about it like unless you unless you're ripping up the floor for another reason Um uh you know to lay new floors or you're
doing a full retrofit We don't really find that many people uh do floor insulation I guess I guess you you a lot of heat would you would lose a lot of heat from from concrete floor Yeah Yeah 15% Somewhere around there Um lofts are fairly simple cuz often it's just lay loft insulation A lot of lofts were done
it's something you can do DIY um you know or it's reasonable and there was there was grants available for that a while ago is that there used to be grants available back in the days when the grant funding was really simple and they said oh you got a loft yeah need insulation yeah right there
tomorrow there we go yeah yeah come around and do it so um yeah you know you up to you know 300 mil of loft insulation is that the is that the number is it that's the number yeah it's It's um diminishing returns after that You know some people go up to 450 mil say but you're only shaving a small
amount of heat loss off that It's the walls are the one that are the that are the tricky thing really because it's expensive It's disruptive Um it's quite complicated especially if you've got solid walls Uh yeah Yeah Yeah Cavity walls are much easier because they just drill a hole and they pump insulation in Yeah Um so as long as you manage some
insulation okay you're doing all right Um that's I don't know 1,00500 quid but for solvable insulation externally you could be looking 20,000 How how do they insulate a wall is just like putting a jacket on Is it like uh Yeah Essentially
Yeah So they they stick insulation on They'll do um a lot of kind of moisture control stuff and then they'll stick insulation on and then put an outer layer of render and that's on the outside rather than the inside They could do both Okay Yeah So the outside uh they put the scaffolding up and they you know just go all around the house
putting jacket on essentially Um internally you use about you lose about 100 mil Okay Um but the advantages of internal is that you can do it um peace meal Um you don't have to do it you know the whole house in one go You can pick the coldest room I could just say because I'm thinking about my house and
um my lounge would probably be fairly easy to do because there's just a a a couch in there and um be easy to move out the way but my kitchen it's got cupboards and Yeah So how would you sort of retrofit that Would you have to take everything You would have to take everything out Okay Yeah Yeah It's um
it's taking everything off the walls adding an extra layer and then putting everything back on Um but it is considerably cheaper to do internal wall insulation Um it's less of a specialist job Um and you can do room by room Okay And just picking it and doing bits And
what difference does it is does it make a notable difference Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah It's that um uh people always talk about a pay How much you going to save me on my bills Um and that calculation it takes a long time to save Yeah You know for you know what you're going to do but you just got
a warm house Yeah Like for every moment that you're in your house you're not cold like okay if you were to take every time you're cold in your house put 20p in a jar you know and then then then you start making the payback pretty quickly because you don't uh it's it's cheaper to heat but it's also just more comfortable And considering the way
climate change is affecting us especially on Cornwall we're going to start seeing much more extreme heat Uh and we're just not set up for it We just don't have you know people don't have air conditioners And if your house is insulated it keeps the cool in Yeah So Well yes Yeah Yeah So as much as it'll
keep the cold out I have uh two or three foot granite walls Yeah Um and uh yeah as I was saying in the winter it's just holds the cold in but during the summer it's so nice at the end of a hot day just to go inside because it's always cool It's always cool Yeah cuz you need
a very extended heat wave to um Yeah to heat up those Yeah those walls Yeah So yeah it's it's you know it's that idea of being comfortable and you speak to people who have had insulation done and that brilliant How about um how about uh double glazing
What's what sort of difference does that make Is that something that's um yeah 10 to 15% I think if your heat has lost to your windows um it does it does make a big difference A lot of people have had their have had their windows delayed Um I think there's issues with heritage properties and that kind of thing where you're not allowed to It's very expensive to do
Um yeah it's a good you know it's one of those good if you were going down the the sort of hierarchy you know the journey of what things you need to do first You kind of you know the loft is such an easy one because it's um you know it's cheap and easy you know then potentially your windows you know then you got to start looking at the start
looking at the walls and then um looking at heat within the house Um you you advise heat pumps right uh we do it's kind of the way forward if you're looking at it a completely decarbonized grid I mean you know 5 to 10 years time we're going to have a completely different energy market in
the fact that once even national is saying by 2035 we're going to be 100% renewable um and that completely reshaped how we're going to be using and thinking about electricity um so providing heat through electricity is is is the way things are moving
forward um so Yeah we do we do recommend heat pumps We do you know as part of our you know impartial advice uh for the project is we make sure that people understand the technology properly because they do operate different to your gas and your oilers They deliver
heat in a different way So what is a heat pump It's a it's essentially a fridge Okay It's just it's it it takes it takes uh it takes uh heat from the air ambient temperature outside and it transfers it to you inside the house uh
through through a compressor Okay um with very much the same process and it works according to what people uh don't understand or they don't understand but they forget is that it works according to the Kelvin temperature scale which is minus you know B 0 is - 273 or something so there's still heat in the air up
until minus 20 what is 70° so people say oh it's freezing outside yes there's still heat in that air that a heat pump can extract um in order then it compresses it through you know a bunch of um technology and and then puts that heat into uh into your home So it's basically
a transfer of heat from outside the home into the home and it does it much more efficiently than any other electric heating because it's a ratio of sort of 3:1 So it uses one unit of electricity to to deliver three units of heat It's slightly more for a ground source heat pump talking um air to water heat pumps
Do you advise the air to water or or both or um there's uh I mean the ground source heat pumps are great They have a much higher return of heat but they're much more expensive You know you're looking 20 to 30 grand for a ground source heat pump Um air to air is quite
good It takes heat from the air and then it it's basically an air conditioning unit that does heat as well So they can be quite effective um and they can deliver kind of instantaneous heat in the sense that you can just sort of turn them off and on as when you need it And what are the um what are the changes
that need to be made within the house to be able to fit a heat Does it go in your attic or um they uh a lot of them can plug into existing well you know if you have a wet heating system which is the radiators or heating system heating system Um it's a lot of the air to water
ones are compatible with that You probably need to resize the radiators Say you have um much larger radiators for a heat pump Um and you do need to make space for a hot tank How big are they They're quite big Yeah Yeah They're sort of larger than your standard immersion The thing with heat pumps is
they operate at a slightly lower temperature So whereas your boilers will pump out Yeah you pump out heat at you know 60 70° the heat pump operates around 45 to 50° Okay That's why they need the larger radiators cuz they they deliver heat slower at a lower temperature So you'd leave that on all the time Yeah Right
Yeah It's a common mistake with people that have heat pumps treat them like boilers So they let the house they go out they let the house drop all the way down to you know however cold it gets 8° come home turn the heat pump on and then it's really expensive to get it from 8° up to 20 Yeah that makes sense Whereas for it to run at 16 it's the
same with your fridge for it to keep everything cold in there Just it can just stick over only a tiny of energy As soon as you open the door it all cold out Then it's got to work and then it starts using energy to get it back to temperature again And you don't turn your fridge off on and off again When you just when you want just when you
want your milk cold Yeah Um so and that's where the insulation is so important because if your house is losing heat faster than a heat cap can provide the heat then the house never quite gets warm enough Yeah Okay And that's where you know if they have had an install
um that wasn't done by a certified MCS that's microgeneration certification scheme installer where they do heat loss calculations and tell you whether the heat pump's going to be able to deliver enough heat to keep the the room warm um then the houses can be cold and you
know in the early days of heat pumps uh before these um you know before MCS was involved in that um there were some bad installs where possibly they weren't suitable for the property They're not suitable for all properties There's some places that are just might be too expensive um to retrofit
Um and then you need to look at um like HBO which is um heating fish oil Uh so you you know you keep your you keep your oil boiler but you have just the more sustainable source of of oil Right Interesting So um what uh is there any finance available for heat pumps Uh
yeah currently there's a there's a grant called the boiler upgrade scheme which is run by the government It's a very easy to access uh scheme There's no eligibility criteria other than the fact that you're replacing a fossil fuel heating system Mhm And they
count electric a lot of traditional electric heating as a fossil fuel because it uses you know three times as much fossil fuels to heat the home as as a heat pump would And that's 7 12 grand towards the cost of installing a heat pump um where uh they probably cover the cost
of the unit itself and then what you'd be paying for extra would be the tank pipe work extra radiators and labor Um if you're replacing currently if you're replacing an oil boiler and um maybe you need to replace a couple radiators anyway or you know there'd be some pipe work then it kind of comes out
cost parity Mhm Um it's still slightly more expensive than replacing a gas boiler at the moment I think if you're taking out a gas boiler you've probably looked at about £2,000 that you'd left to contribute Um it's all sorted out by the installer So they do all the paperwork They get the money from the government and they just bill you for the
difference And does that last as long as a a standard boiler would last or generally Yes Yeah They've started um especially with the with the heat pump and corn was they they put this special coating on that helps it to um survive some of the harsher sea conditions because they did have a problem with them rusting Everything is
cool Everything cool Yes I know You just had a look under my car Um but yeah so they've they've gotten a lot better with the tech plan on So um and it's you know it's it's you got heat pump It's a different way of thinking about your heating as well because what it does it keeps your house at 16° 16 to 18° So
what you have is a a warm and comfortable house most the time and then if you want a little bit warmer then you just top up the temperature Okay And that's how they're designed to work effectively Um if you're going to treat them like a boiler and only turn them on for that one hour at 6:00 when you want
a bit of heat then they start costing quite a lot Okay Yeah Um so um what are the pitfalls and what should people look out for when retrofitting or upgrading Um I think uh moisture control is a big one because a lot of what you're doing
when you're when you're retrofitting is you're sealing the box So um especially you know with a lot of your traditional materials were designed to all work in a certain way in certain layers together so that the walls could breathe And then often what you're doing with insulation is you're cutting off
that breathability and you're creating a sealed box right So you do need to manage the ventilation and moisture control quite carefully um looking at installing vents and um heat um recovery and moisture control those kind of things That is something that people do need to be aware of um you know in a lot
of homes you know install uh all the double glazing and the sealed doors and the draft excluders and all that kind of thing which you really do need to turn the air over in the house regularly because you're generating a lot of moisture through your showers and cooking and even just breathing Um and
drying clothes in a I was amazed at the the amount of water that you that goes into the air from drying clothes 3 kilos of water Yeah it is huge amount of um of water Um so yeah moisture management is key Um you know getting
uh good good builders and good good installers in I think is is really important as well Making sure that like your insul in insulation people are swiggoer registered and your um you know if you're getting any heating done that they're MCS registered and they're kind of a trusted installer Yeah Uh any other
pitfalls I think you could um uh yeah just understanding how your heat pump's going to heat your property Um if you were underheating your property which is what a lot of people could be doing Um then uh the heat pump
might end up costing you more because at the moment it runs at cost parity with with gas and oil It should cost about the same That's assuming you're delivering the amount of heat that your energy performance certificate kind of states you need for the house which some people might not be putting that much heat into the house Mhm But a heat pump
will give you that constant heat Solve is an SEO and web design agency that builds highquality sustainable websites and strategies to help businesses grow online They're also BC Corp meaning they're a business for good making a positive impact while driving real results As a
special offer for our listeners Solve is offering a free website audit and consultation Just mention searching for a greener room to claim yours [Music] Next up we've got your five top tips and uh Oh yeah We're going to give you one minute to talk about uh each top tip And
um Alex is going to be over there with the uh with the dinner bell Your first one is starting your uh start planning your retrofit journey Um yeah I think you know if you are going to make significant changes to your house um to make it a you know warm
and comfortable home the same way that you're you know if you're remodeling your kitchen doing your bathroom to make it a nicer space to live in You're doing a very similar thing to your home Um so you do need to think about the process of how you're going to do that and plan um how you're going to fund it and what
order you're going to do things in Um a lot of thinking about that journey is also dealing with the lowhanging fruit which are the easy things you can do in your house to um reduce your energy demand uh like um draft proofing say or turning your thermostat down or changing
your light bulbs A lot of those things we've been talking about for quite a long time I feel a lot of a lot of places a lot of householders have taken that on board but there might still be gaps in that in that journey which uh you know we could help you with some of the more basic stuff as well as helping
you with the rest of the journey I'd say that was almost perfect timing there Stephen Thank you very much Wash that clock So number two insulate insulate insulate Yeah we you know we can't talk about this enough really It's so important in having a a warm and comfortable home
that you're going to be able to heat effectively is to make sure that you look at the insulation and that you do it uh that you do it properly uh you know number one fabric first and all the conversations we're going to have with people is is to start look at the fabric of your building and seeing how you can
have it performing better uh for thermal resist resistivity resistivity pretty sure that's if it's not a word it is now uh yeah yeah I've just made that realize that maybe don't say that enough so starting off with um starting off
with lost insulation and yeah you always go for the easy ones first then you you know the cheaper ones that you can do quickly and they make a big difference Um and then that's the whole thing about planning is to know when and how you're going to do the more difficult jobs and that's something that's on the money He's on the money and that's something
you can help with is the planning Excellent So the next one is understand your energy use Now that's uh yeah go um uh you do need to know where the energy is going in your in your property Uh if you are going to try and induce it and manage it a little bit better it's really good to just have an understanding Uh a lot of smart meters
have an inhome display If you put that somewhere prominence I think the statistics is you can save up to 20% on your bills just by being able to look and say oh you know something's on Why is that costing me 20 p an hour instead of five p an hour which is my general baseline So having it somewhere prominent where you can look at it and
see what is going on uh in your house and understanding how you use energy through the year is really important in uh having a low carbon future especially with a lot of the low uh the new innovative tariffs that are coming in place with the time of use and you know
there's a glut of renewable energy in the system You can use loads of energy when there isn't you use less you've you've rehearsed these haven't you Um number four is reduce demand Uh yeah very important It's those things we're talking about Uh you were saying
of a generation where you put a jumper on So instead of whacking up the thermostat you know put an extra layer on uh uh we do a lot of we give out a lot of um heated throws So they're like this beautiful luxurious um uh heated blankets um that are great for if you
are still and you're sedentary in the house to put the heater throw on instead of turning up the temperature You can allow your ambient temperatures to drop slightly um to help reduce demand and things like removing drafts um changing your light bulbs and um managing use of things like dryers and having energy
efficient appliances It all plays into a wider structural plan to decarbonize our energy use Excellent Excellent Quick ring the bell Yay And number five there is call C and talk
to talk to an adviser Um yeah you know we're here We're we're ready to help uh we can do phone advice or um come and see your house and actually see what your situation is and what you need Um there's a lot of confusing information out there and especially
with installers who are trying to sell you something So because we're not trying to sell anything we can tell you give you impartial idea as to what you need to do when Um you'll see a lot of ads on social media for solar panels Um and they're all quite confusing as to
you know how much you could earn how expensive they are whether you need a battery or not There's a lot of um misinformation about battery technology Uh if you're confused about any of that kind of thing just give us a call Um and we will help guide you through the process He's good He's good And and and you're
free at the point of contact Yeah Yeah we're completely free We don't get any commissions from anyone We don't have um Yeah No kickbacks from installers So you're totally independent Completely impartial and free advice Yeah It doesn't cost anything And in fact you know a lot of the time we can save people loads of money from uh save them
from going down um an incorrect route Excellent Excellent Okay So next up we are talking about evidence So you've come with three bits of evidence today I'll have to look up my notes for some of them because they they're fairly complicated bits of evidence that you know they're comprehensive in a sense So
I don't want to get it wrong So I have every faith that you're going to ace this So you've got 30 seconds this time And the first one we're going to talk about is the National Grid Net Zero Community Guide Um yeah So that was um it's a document that's been produced in
conjunction with uh REN and NZCOM Uh REN is a Wadebridge based uh Wadebridge renewable energy network Uh and then NZCOM is the net0ero community Um and it's a guide that helps guide communities to achieve net zero Um
because very important to know how you're going to get to net zero through all aspects of your society and as a community to have a guiding uh document to help you through that process I think it's vital Excellent And that will be available um on our website for you to
uh have a look at Uh the second one there is the Cormal climate care film power to the people Uh yeah I do actually feature in it So bit biased Um but yeah that whole range of films are just really really great looks at
environmental issues within CM um very very well done The arguments are all very clearly set out um using local people and local issues Uh the power to the people one focuses on energy specifically which is why C has been
involved um talking about um yeah decarbonizing energies So well worth a look and that's available on YouTube They're available on YouTube Yeah Cornal Climate Cornal Climate Care Okay is I think the account name Excellent Um and once again that will be available um
through our channels Um so the third uh bit of evidence there is the housing decarbonization strategy for Cornwall Yeah So another um look at Cornwall kind of leading the way in developing the strategy Um it's a practical guide at
how you can decarbonize homes uh in giving uh people the tools they need to take those steps um very very just so vital that a council is on board with the decarbonization and something that probably will be spread all around the
uh all around the country I think Cornwall is one of the first and actually having a decarbonization scenario for homes Okay So how can we get uh how can we get in contact with you How can we uh organize a consultation Uh yeah well we're readily available on a we've got a free phone number uh
08009541956 Um you can leave us a message there Give us a bit of details about your property and that you want to speak to the lowcarbon team Uh otherwise on email lowcarbon c.org.uk UK and all of the information as well as all our future proofing your home guides
um are on the website as well as a contact form and all the contact details That's c.org.uk Excellent And that's wonderful Um just one more question to ask you Yeah If we could um uh what can we do today to make a better tomorrow One thing One thing Um
you've got to start It's always that first step that is the hardest You have to make one move Whether that's I mean we'd love it to be a phone call to us so that we can help you plan that But you know there's one thing of all the things we've discussed today There's lots of you know get it in the head that you get
it in your head that you're starting a journey and you need to take you need to take that first step Could be a phone call to us It could be look you know digging the uh inh home display out of the cupboard It could be turning a thermostat down There's you know there's lots of options but it's it's it's important to take that first step cuz
once you're on the journey then you're on the journey aren't you You're going Absolutely That's a great uh Yeah great point is to just get started Just get started Have a look at the website and go from there Yeah absolutely Well Stephen it's been uh we've had some fantastic information there from you It's been great to have you on the show
Thank you so much And uh thank you very much Take care Great Goodbye That's it for this episode of Searching for a Green Room We'd love to hear your thoughts Let us know what you think who you'd like to hear from any topics you want us to cover Drop us a comment Don't
forget to like and subscribe so you never miss an episode See you next time
The Chat
The Guest: Steven Murphy
Low-Carbon Energy Adviser at Community Energy Plus
The Chat
Growing Up Surrounded by Nature
Steven shares stories of his childhood in post-apartheid South Africa, where powerful social change met the raw beauty of nature. Surfing, wildlife, and the occasional shark sighting all played their part in shaping his early sense of connection with the environment.
From Consumerism to Campaigning
A pivotal university lecturer helped Steven see beyond advertising and consumerism, prompting a move into environmental campaigning. His work with Greenpeace and Christian Aid took him to international climate talks, where he saw first-hand both the possibilities and the frustrations of global climate policy.
The Personal is Political
Now based in Cornwall with two young children, Steven explains how fatherhood motivates his climate work. He reflects on how our everyday lives are already being shaped by a changed climate, and why normalising sustainability is the key to real change.
Contradictions and Imperfection
From flying to family and the lure of a fast car, Steven is honest about the tensions in living sustainably. He argues for a more forgiving, practical approach: doing what we can, owning our contradictions, and remembering that none of us are perfect.
Retrofitting Homes, Simply Explained
Steven breaks down what retrofitting really means, and how Community Energy Plus supports people through the maze of upgrades, insulation, grants, and planning. He outlines why insulation comes first, what heat pumps actually do, and what pitfalls to avoid.
Cornwall’s Energy Challenge
With its old housing stock and off-grid communities, Cornwall faces unique challenges in home energy. Steven explains how targeted support, smart planning, and better information can make a real difference.
Steven’s Top Achievable Tips
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Start Planning Your Retrofit Journey: Approach it like any other home project. Think ahead, do what’s easy first, and get support where needed.
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Insulate, Insulate, Insulate: Always start with the fabric of the building. Loft insulation, walls, and draft proofing all help.
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Understand Your Energy Use: Use your in-home display to track usage. Small changes can lead to big savings.
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Reduce Demand: Use heated throws, lower thermostats, and energy-efficient appliances.
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Talk to a Professional: Community Energy Plus offers free, impartial advice to help you make the right choices.
Steven’s Evidence
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National Grid Net Zero Community Guide: Produced with Wadebridge Renewable Energy Network and NZCOM, this guide supports communities working towards net zero.
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Cornwall Climate Care Film – Power to the People: A locally made film exploring the region’s energy transition, available on YouTube.
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Cornwall’s Housing Decarbonisation Strategy: A clear plan from the local authority on decarbonising housing, setting an example for other counties.
What One Thing Can We Do Today to Make a Better Tomorrow?
Take the first step. Whether it’s digging out your in-home display, turning down the thermostat, or calling an adviser, just start. That’s how the journey begins.
Contact Details
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Website: www.cep.org.uk
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Email: [email protected]
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Phone: 0800 954 1956
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YouTube (for films): Search “Cornwall Climate Care”
