Date: May 20, 2025
Guest: Jake Causley
Overview:
Curly Steve and Jake discuss the impact of eco-anxiety on individuals' actions and empowerment. Jake explains that eco anxiety is a range of emotions, including numbness, motivation, and fear, in response to the climate crisis. He emphasises the importance of community, reflective activities, and visualisation in overcoming eco-anxiety. Jake highlights the significant impact of dietary changes, particularly shifting to plant-based diets, which reduce land and water usage by 75%. He also discusses the role of protests and financial actions, such as switching to sustainable banks, in driving systemic change. Jake shares his personal experiences with protests and the importance of balancing personal contradictions while advocating for sustainability.
Topics:
Environment, Trees
Available on:
Watch on youtube
We are faced with a whole load of craziness in the world right now. It's understandable that some are struggling to get to grips with it. Today, we're
here with Jake and we're going to ask, can our emotions be our superpower? Hi, I'm Curly Steve and we are searching for a greener room.
[Music] So, Jake, hey, how you doing? Morning, Curly Steve. And nice to see you. I'm
good, thanks. I've been thinking the whole way here whether I need a hair related name. Yeah. Or not. And I was trying to think I've washed my hair
today and I was like I was like, do I go, you know, clean hair Jake or just floppy Jake? I don't know. Yeah. A while ago I had all my hair shaved off and
everyone was like, what do we call you? How long ago? How much growing is this? About about this long ago. So Jake, let's get down to it. Um, tell
me about what you do. Why are you here today? Well, I'm here today. Uh, I guess I'm here today. I'm very passionate about helping people feel empowered. I
think we face a massive challenge of the day not really in awareness of um things that are going on in the world and um actions we can take uh to make a
difference but actually the step further for me is um you know the belief that we can make that difference if we take them. So having that sense of agency um
so that's why I'm I think I'm here today to try and help people discover that agency. Okay. So, let's just rewind with that for a minute because um we're sort
of thinking about um the the negative side of things, I guess, is is is the word eco anxiety. And eco anxiety to me um it's it sort of spells inaction and
it spells um people not really knowing what they should do. Uh disempowerment um you know where what is eco anxiety? Yeah. Well, that's a really good place
to start. So, um, you know, how does how does the climate crisis and biodiversity loss make you feel? That's that's the first question to untap that question.
So, how how do they make you feel? That's a good question, isn't it? And and actually, it makes me feel numb. Yeah. Um, because I uh I don't like to
do anger. Yeah. I think if I could do anger, then I'd be angry. Yeah. But I I feel numb because I feel I quite often feel I don't know what to do what to do
to to make it better. Yeah. Yeah. So numbness. Yeah. I completely resonate with what what you say. Others may say things like um you know I feel very
personally driven. I feel very like motivated. I also feel you know quite sad and quite scared. That whole plethora of feelings is what eco anxiety
is. It isn't just anxiety. It's the the range of feelings that we have in response to the real big challenges that are going on. And it's worth saying that
um that those are entirely natural feelings and there's not a one-sizefits-all. It shows that you have a deep uh empathy and level of
connection to what's going on around you. So, eco anxiety is that it's the it's the smoothie of emotions that we feel from numbness to um motivation and
sadness and everything in between. And out of all of those um those feelings, uh which ones, you know, we're we're talking here about um uh turning your um
emotions into superpowers. Um but which ones are those are them are the most numbing? Which ones are what what what's um what am I trying to say here? What
what what are people doing with eco anxiety? Is it is it making them do more to make the world better or is it stopping them doing?
Yeah, it's a good question. I think people are from my from what I understand and my experience living through it and my training learning
about it is people are often often find themselves in two different states. So you're either in a state of actually what we term ecophobia which is that
numbness that stuckness. You feel stuck. You feel unable to take action for whatever reason. you feel um disempowered. Um so you feel like you're
in that hole and can't really climb out. Some people feel like that and then it's almost like a a sliding scale and pivoting into what we term eco anxieties
where you recognize that those emotions often catalyze your actions. Um so a good place to start is often thinking about your climate catalyst. So it might
be a moment in your life where you took action for for climate, for biodiversity, for social action, for anything in the relation to this space.
There'll be a grounding emotion you felt that powered you through to take action. Um so I I try and think of ones that that I have. We we all have different
stories, but there'll be times um there'll be a way you feel that um pushed you through to that action. So that's the second um way that these
emotions can impact you is actually in a very positive way. If you really connect to yourself and reflect on times of previous action, you can use them to
help define your action going forward. Interesting. So so ecoaction has has a polar polar outcome. I think so spectrum. Yeah. And and it's natural to
have go through waves like we think of it I think it's easy for us to think very bipolar bipolary is that a word in two ways as human beings like um like an
all or nothing future scenario you know that's a great example when actually it's multifaceted and complicated but emotionally as well and action it can um
feel like you have to be motivated or you're not and actually in reality across our lives months weeks days it's natural for us to flux in and out of
those waves. It's natural to feel very dismotivated sometimes or very upright sometimes um you know from yeah from different things that happen you do
dayto-day. So it's it's okay also to accept that you might need a timeout for like an evening a week or whatever. And yeah, I've been there been there in, you
know, parts of my life. There's been times where I felt really motivated and connected to a cause and I've been in touch with the emotions that I feel in
that moment and I feel very uh motivated and full of agency. And there's times where I really feel uh just um really not wanting to talk to anyone, just
binge watching TV at home and like that acceptance of that f that's fine is also really important. Yeah, I think um I think that's a really important thing
for humans to recognize is that sometimes locking yourself up in a dark room is actually okay. Yeah. And actually sometimes the you know taking
action is okay and sometimes somewhere in between the two is okay. And sometimes it's okay is a really good expression to to just say to yourself,
isn't it? Definitely. And like that that concept of like that that imperfection, that imperfect activist is a great phrase that I love that's been coined in
some of the organizations that I volunteer and give time to. Um yeah, we there's there's no perfect activist, you know. Um imperfection is fine. We're
only human. So I'm glad you brought that up because perfectionism um is is a a really difficult trait for people to uh take control of, isn't it?
And um and actually imperfection is is is a good place to recognize and to perform in. Um and so uh analysis paralysis, you know, looking too far
into what you can do and end up doing nothing because of it. Yeah. Um you know what your thoughts on that? Looking too much. Yeah. It's Yeah. So almost like
diving too much into an issue that you just become ever more overwhelmed, right? Is that is that kind of what you mean? Yeah. Well, sort of trying to do
everything perfectly. Yeah. And actually perfect is almost um you know too far at the end. Yeah. To reach I really resonate with that. Um you know someone
who just I feel you know deeply connected that this is the biggest issue of our time. Not only um the crisis we face but the inaction uh people feel um
that the yeah the lack of agency. So yeah I definitely definitely resonate with that. There's moments where I'm like, "Oh gosh, like it feels so
insignificant um unless I do all all these different things." Um so yeah, I definitely definitely resonate with that. And to do some things a little bit
is sometimes better than to do nothing. Yeah, I've had to learn that in um in both work and and you know, personal life. It's um come to terms with it's
better to do a few things really well, I think, than spread yourself too thin. And that's kind of some of the approach that we might talk about later with um
Force of Nature, the charity that I've been um that I've been trained with that acts in this area and helps people come use those emotions for good. Um yeah,
choosing those one or two things that you're really passionate about that you have that real um real uncomfortable stomach with. Taking action in those
two, making that your like flag that you fly is um perhaps more effective than spreading yourself all too thin. And how is um how's community involved in all of
this? Yeah, I mean community is massive. It's um from from research that's been found um particularly amongst young people, so 35 and under, but I think
it's relevant to everyone is um the two things that come that it comes down to when it comes to reasons for disempowerment and working through that
is senses of community and defining what action looks like for you. So defining action that that might be reflective activities that might be exploring stuff
and saying no to something saying yes some things but community is really important that that um connection to like-minded people who can you know spur
you on make you feel like you're you're part of something bigger than yourself is so important. So having those people in your network and groups to be a part
of is really really important. And so how how do people find those communities? Yeah they well we live in such a fascinating time don't we?
because that the world is full of challenges but also full of so many wonderful organizations that are working. I think something I always
struggle with is um I never want to reinvent the wheel. I feel like there's there's there's probably something someone a group somewhere that's working
in a space in a theme you know a key thing relating to sustainability. Um so finding them is kind of in a way easier than ever. um you know we have
technology and online communities as well as inerson ones. Um so yeah getting out talking to people discovering your local area in particular you know we
talk about about a lot about um uh acting locally thinking globally um that's really important I think being part of communities on different scales
is really important. So you might have uh local organizations um in your local area that you can find out about through just notice boards and asking people
who've lived in town for ages. Um, and you could have global communities or national ones certainly with big organizations like, you know, things
like Save the Children or Fair Trade or Extinction Rebellion. They they have massive reach. So, all it takes is a bit a bit of research and a bit of
connecting to people. And social media has made that so much easier nowadays, hasn't it? Absolutely. And there's there's so many great influencers out
there as well. you know, you can search for for videos and themes, but also, you know, there's a few really great positive influencers I follow who um not
only share information, but they share like communities as well. And um I guess a lot of people are working in that space like that your your form of action
might be what action looks like to you might be increasing the reach of an organization and you're playing your part then in something. It might not
have an inferred direct reduction in carbon emissions or energy, but you're actually reaching more people, which um is what it's all about really. Yeah,
absolutely. I suppose one person doing one thing or 100 people doing 100 things is, you know, it's makes a massive difference, doesn't it? Yeah, for sure.
Absolutely. So, what um so let's rewind to um to eco anxiety. Yeah. If someone feeling is feeling, you know, in front of the headlights and stuck, what what
sort of things can they do to pull themselves out of it? Cool. Well, I will give a shout out to Force of Nature. Yeah, Force of Nature. Tell us a little
bit about that. So, Force of Nature is a CIC working at the interface between mental health and climate change. They've been leading in this space for
several years. Um they're quite a young uh charity, so they're only about five, six years old. But they were set up in response to their founder and their team
recognizing this dissonance between um uh they found 70% of young people worldwide in a study of 500 people. Um said that they were their mental health
was impacted by climate change, but only about 25% of them said they knew what to do about it. They felt I know they were stuck. So they made this community and
uh what they do to cut long story short is um they offer lots of training programs. They offer an online community to be part of um and they have loads of
resources. So everything I'm talking about today I've only learned from you know re researching with them and um doing training with them. So yeah so big
shout out to them. Um do go check them out. Anyone can join as well. You don't have to just be a young person. But yeah to come back to your question about what
what do people do? Um I think um finding that community is really important. And when we think about that second point about defining what action looks like to
you, break breaking down those big overwhelming concepts and themes into tangible steps. And the ways you might go about doing that, I think um are
hooked on maybe two or three things. So the first thing is um tapping into your why. Your why you're we talked about a bit earlier, didn't we? But your why
you're doing thing doing something is almost more important than your what you're doing. So I might uh for instance uh interail across Europe. I did it a
couple years ago. Um that that's my what I did but the why I did that is because I deeply believe we need to car flying and I feel very kind of proud to do that
and I want to see the scenery and stuff like that. So connecting to your why something is really important to you um taps into that emotional response and
gets you in tune with your emotions a bit more which can help you in the future as well. Um, so that's your why. And then I think the other couple are um
reflective activities are really important. We mentioned it earlier, but thinking back to times where you've taken action, where you felt good about
something, where you've seen something through, where you've connected with community, thinking back to um, how you felt in that moment. Um, and building
from that is really, really important. And reflection might also be that slight emotional response too. So um reflecting on what works for you, what sort of
coping mechanisms um you have, what passions you have, what problems you have, that's all in that reflective area. And then finally, it's
visualization. So the power of visualization is really important and really really powerful. So visualization is um thinking it's helping us
understand what a better future looks like because if we don't have a place to aim towards, we'll never be able to truly work back from it. So it's very
easy in today's world to think about all the bad things that could happen but it's a it's a multifaceted issue and it's not an all or nothing scenario. The
future could look very different and um visualization activities of you know what what could my local town look like in in 10 years time um 20 years time
what does a future look like where a problem I really care about has been solved um and what are the steps that we need to take to work back from that
point. So finding that guiding compass is really really important. I like that. I like that. And that's that's sort of big picture stuff, isn't it?
How about the small picture where you're just feeling rotten? Yeah. What? But is is eco anxiety the same as normal anxiety? Is it is breathing help? Does
does yoga help? Does exercise? Does eating well? Does you know, all the usual sort of things? Does does that help? I think it varies depending on the
person. So, you know, for me recently when I when I've been feeling quite overwhelmed and lack of motivation, I've felt quite sort of insular. I kind of
like just taking myself for a walk in the woods. I love trees. I love nature every time. Every time. Of course. Yeah. We chat a bit at the beginning. So,
nature is really important. Connecting to nature is so important. You know, we're we're nature- based creatures. Um so, connecting to those places that
matter to you is really important. But it will vary depending on the person. But I think um yeah, all the things you mentioned, breathing, meditative stuff
um is is really important when you're feeling overwhelmed. Um yeah, but it will it will look different for each person. So that's kind of a personal
journey really, finding your coping mechanisms, your happy places. Um it might be things like journaling. It might be sort of mapping out things. It
might be that you need to join some sort of support group to help tease out some of some of this stuff. So yeah, it looks quite different. I don't really have a
one-sizefits- all answer for it. And that's um so you you said earlier about the uh the the it being sort of an under 35 year old thing. Um is that is that
right or I mean cuz I'm I'm in my 50s now unfortunately. Um and I I guess I'm I have a a an amount of eco anxiety. Um where where's where's the land lie with
this? Is it people being born into a world where they're worried or um cuz there's there's always been worry. There's always been things going on that
aren't great. Yeah. Um whether it be war, whether it be politics, whether it be, you know, there's I can give you a whole list, but is it any worse now than
it was? Yeah. Two years ago, five years ago, 10 years. It's a strange thing, isn't it? And um yeah, sorry I didn't answer the question first time, but
yeah, you're right. It's um it it can it definitely is when we come back to that definition of eco anxiety, it is just emotional responses. So um you know
there's more understanding these days that a bit of research has gone into it that um general anxiety might be caused by the climate crisis, biodiversity
loss, a local area being demolished for housing or you know your favorite species being told the population's gone down or something or people people
starving and and dying and stuff. So um it it is prevalent in people who are over 35 as well and more and more we're thinking actually perhaps it's just
enveloped in that more generalized you know diagnosis of things like anxiety and depression. So officially eco anxiety isn't a clinical condition but
the symptoms of eco anxiety like we talked about um are um recognized symptoms of other clinical conditions. And I think the other thing that's
important to think about that has only really come out in, you know, my life personally and through the training I've done and um conversation I've had is is
those emotional responses might vary depending on your um your upbringing and your um uh place you find yourself in the world. So the global north where
we're speaking from at the moment uh versus the global south for instance someone in the global south might be living on the front lines of climate
change and biodiversity loss and seeing you know freak weather events and affecting their day-to-day food supplies and housing conditions. Their
generalized fear and dread everyday lived experience is eco anxiety but we don't label it as that. Whereas in the north, we're kind of in that privileged
position to actually have a bit of space to um um not only um distance ourselves from the immediate impacts of some of this stuff, but actually tap a bit more
into our mental health. So for us, we might define it as eco anxiety, but in reality, the feelings across those both parts of the hemisphere um are the same.
They're grounded in the same um reasons for it. Solve is an SEO and web design agency that builds highquality sustainable websites and strategies to
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[Music] So if we go back to um where we were. So um what can we do about this? Yeah. What can we do about it? So I mean I'd like
to I've had five years experience now in um the sustainability like kind of sector I guess. So I'd like to think I know some stuff and I'd like to think um
I I know I know the big impact actions we can take. You know we talk a lot about that disempowerment piece. I think it's really important for people to
understand um what actions have a real big impact, you know, scaled impact. So when I talk about what people can do, I talk about
those real big impact things. I'm not talking about the little stuff. Um I'm talking about yeah, the things that um will hopefully bring you the most
empower sense of empowerment because they have big impact stuff. So um the sort of things I like to talk about is you know thinking about your day-to-day
personal life. Um dietary change is really big one. So we have three choices a day to of what we put on our on our plates and um there's a lo there's so
much opportunity with with the food and drink that we put on our on our plates. Um there's so much that goes into food production and there's so many things
like um everything from packaging to um to locality, seasonality, all those different facets are all really important. But the core crux of it from
from my opinion especially in a western world country is um what the actual items are on our plate and that comes down to animal agriculture and
plant-based diets. So shifting to plant-based diets has been shown in research um to require 75% less land um have 75% less impact on things like
water pollution and uh and carbon emissions. So choosing plant-based products to eat every day really has a transformative potential and that will
cascade down the industrial chains and all that sort of thing. Um so that's one big impact. So um just staying on that a second I I guess um going from being a
um free meat a day um to being let's say vegan um is a massive step. But actually people can start making that step by just changing one meal in a week. Yeah,
for sure. Um and then in a month's time maybe change two meals and then in a bit more time maybe three and four and five and six. And I like to be transparent
with people like I've been a vegan 5 years now and it was a journey you know it's it's um it's a journey that you go on. It took me you know three to six
months to fully go that and there's different levels. it will mean different things to different people but there's you know the whole uh you know what we
just said that the actual basis of carbon impact and land impact biodiversity impact there's also an ethical you know reasons people might go
for it but yeah ultimately like you say it's um it's something it's easier than ever to do it in a western world country like the UK um and there's so much
resource out there you know the internet has so many recipes you can be an easy vegan uh you know you can look into the um into the uh real uh like flagship you
know swap pops and sort of taking your favorite meal and veganifying it. Um or you can just Yeah, I I think it's really important. I like to say to people, you
know, when you go out for your next meal, if you eat out somewhere, uh why don't you choose the plant-based option? You know, it's requiring no extra effort
from you. You're choosing um something that hopefully is quite a good quality meal because you're in a restaurant and you know that's a starting place. It
interests me people who um flatly deny that that's a an option um and and you know almost get angry that they're being denied their their meat or whatever. And
it is a massive impact on the planet, isn't it? That um um you know it it uh it's the one of the sole reasons that we've lost lots of our forests on the
planet or you know wooded areas. Um yeah and I like um yeah making it simple for people that in my head how it works is you know we might take let's take the
milk we drink. So um cow's milk versus something like oat milk um to put simply hope hopefully to help with your podcast but um you know oat milk requires a set
amount of land to um to grow those oats. Uh you might have a few inputs like you know feed and stuff like that. If it's non-organic you might have things like
pesticides. Um and that's grown and that's mil and that's made into oat milk. Um, and then as soon as you have a an animal, a creature in that, you're
having to grow those crops initially first and have an equal perhaps more greater sum of land to rear the animals. So you've instantly got that doubling of
like input. So it makes double it's more than double more than double. So yeah, I don't have the stats in my head, but you know, I think I think of global carbon
emissions, it's it's animal agriculture is responsible for something around 20 25%. Um, yeah, that's what it's about. That's massive. Yeah, it's massive.
Something like that. Have to double check the stats. Yeah. But trust me, it's around there. Trust me, around there. But yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it's
it's easier than ever and it's something we can do everyday life. You know, we we talk about um things we might do as a one-off. Might might uh take the train
rather than fly across somewhere in Europe. Um but this is every day. This is like really really really important. Really important. Really important. What
else? What else? I'm trying to remember my list. I don't want I was trying to like build up something. Um well, we had protest. We've been talking about
protest, haven't we? So, we'll talk about protest. So, I think it's really important for us to also act at scales. You know, we've just talked about our
personal life, but we need to be part of things that are bigger than ourselves as well. So, that might be getting involved in your local community, um joining an
interest group, having that action and impact that's greater than the sum of your parts. But also, I think it's really important for us to recognize
that I think a lot of the reason people feel disempowered is because we don't think our leaders are looking after us. We don't feel like they're doing our
job. There's a lot of people that feel really hopeless about it and we don't feel like we can properly impact things. And we look across, you know, recent
history and larger history. Recent history, writing a letter to your MP doesn't make a difference. Um, gathering a group of signatures doesn't really
make a difference. what makes a difference um is taking collective nonviolent direct action. And we look across um more recent history in you
know the 20th century and the 19th century big transformative changes in society to match the needs of that time were were caused by uh were led by
people in nonviolent action groups. So people like Martin Luther King and the suffragettes movement. um people took disruptive action um and brought about
change and that's what we need to do now as well. So protesting, taking the message to our leaders in places like London, maybe even your local local
council as well, getting um getting people bodies on the line and there's multiple ways you can be part of protest movements. You know, you it's easy to
think of um I've done a whole range of things, but it's easy to think about the person who might sit in the road and block traffic. Um but also for each
person who does that um there's 10 people behind that doing you know social media organization running a running a house and cooking for people doing
outreach and events. So the ways you can get involved in movements um like Greenpeace, like um Extin Rebellion and Just Oil, even things like the Captain
Paul Watson Foundation. There's loads of them, but there's loads of ways you can get involved. And I think it's really important for us to recognize we have
that we live in a country where we have that democratic freedom um more so than others across the world. And we have a we have a responsibility there to hold
people account to that. and where we think things aren't working, we should stand up for ourselves and do something about it. So tell me um the protest that
you've done that's that's made the biggest amount of Yeah, I mean really topical is the most recent one. So um well I'd say I'd call attention to two.
So October 2023 um I went and took action with Just Up Oil in London. So, just up oil at the time were um campaigning for no new oil and gas um
extraction basically from the UK government. Um there's so much science behind it. Um go go to a welcome talk. You'll hear all about it. I won't be
able to split it out here, but um uh yeah, it's just incompatible with global warming thresholds to continue drilling new oil and gas. We need to stop that.
and we've got about, you know, 5 to 8 years of um current supply of oil to transition us to that point. So that was that's what the demand was and we took
action in October 2023 um in London and we decided to try and overwhelm the police to send a message to the government that we're not okay
with that. So the way we were overwhelming the police was um getting as many people arrested as possible. So for the first time in October 2023, I
sat in a road and I got arrested for the first time and spent 13 hours in a jail cell. Um I was on the road for 3 minutes. I was arrested after 3 minutes.
It was very overwhelming and underwhelming at the same time. And um yeah, what you ask what we've seen from the rep repercussions of that I I
believe you know the new Labor government committed in the last manifesto to no new oil and gas. Five years ago when just wasn't around that
wouldn't have been a thing. What were you actually arrested for? So um officially the uh so so this is also the thing about protest is our rights as
people in the UK are being eroded. So it's really the government and um big lobbyists from big industries that um are doing are doing bad things have um
put loads of new laws and enforcements in place. So my I think my official arrestable like thing was um this relatively new one which is really
draconian, really really bad and it's about um uh I've forgotten the the term for it now but it's um causing disruption to like national
infrastructure and national infrastructure can mean anything from an airport all the way to a B- road. Okay. So, we were taken up a B- road. So, the
lowest spectrum of this, you know, um disruption, people stuck in a traffic jam for maybe half an hour, an hour. So, presumably you were arrested and kept in
a cell for 13 hours to to till the protest stopped and you could no longer be a part of it. Yeah. So, again, it's officially, as far as I understand, like
police can't keep people for longer than 24 hours in a jail cell. And then you weren't charged. Uh yeah, sitting here today, I wasn't charged. Um it's all
been Matt Fu and that that's the that's the reason it worked the strategy and um you know I can't I can't um speak high more highly of how historically informed
these movements are and also how well organized they are. You know you go um that they they knew that uh overwhelming the police in the jail cells um filling
those jail cells which are already like bursting already um would demand a load of police resource put a lot of you know strain on the police and that sends a
message to government. So uh yeah overwhelming with I think on that day 120 people got arrested. Um 120 people were taking up jail cells. People who
are fighting for our future fighting on the science that sends a message like who should actually be in those jail cells.
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That was that one. And then the most recent one actually is um sitting here today. We're recording in March is um I went up and
took part uh in an action where we blocked a road for an hour outside the royal courts of justice. So 16 I think as of today 15 peaceful protesters are
in prison at the moment I think is one of the stats I bought 15 15 people are in prison for this stuff. So there's people in prison living out sentences of
anything between 8 months and 5 years sitting in the road for taking action for climate for peaceful protest nonviolent action. So just sitting with
that is like crazy like uh you might expect that in a radical country like and there's so many other things going on in the in the country that would
require those place those places. So the latest action I took was all about that. So it's a amazing organization called defend our juries and essentially it's
calling out um corruption in the court system. So the fact this this has implications for whatever you deem important to you because the rights of
peaceful protest are being eroded in this country. So a thousand people went up um on the day of a court hearing to try and appeal these sentences that
people have been given to shorten them. So that was happening in the court and we went up and blocked a road. A thousand people sat in the road for um
one hour. Um there were no arrests. I think there was one for someone who'd done some previous action but no arrests. It was just pure people power
in this road in center of London on the strand um silently sitting in a road with placards calling out this injustice. Um and we fast forward to now
in March. We just heard last Friday that um I think five of those 16 sentences have been shortened as a result. Um 10 of them haven't, but five of them have,
which I think, you know, personally without that action wouldn't have happened. Good work. Thanks very much. Thank you. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So, I
think um yeah, I think you only Yeah. Personally, personally experiencing those things, you know, yeah, the no new oil and gas that we find ourselves in
with this new Labor government and the fact that five of those 16 have have got reduced sentences is is progress. And I don't think it would have happened
without a lot of people getting up and shouting about it or sitting quietly about it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So tell me um you talk you um talk
about finances. Yeah. Yeah. That was that was the next one on your list. Yeah. So um like I say coming back to that um these are what I feel big impact
things for you the listener. Um actions with the biggest impact. So pro getting out protesting changing your diet. Um banking and finance. Um I think about
eight I think uh there's an amazing organization that's about to close actually. It's sad. It's a charity called make my money matter. Um, so I
think they'll probably have a holding page or something. So check out them. Um, and also another one called Switch It Green. But they work in this space of
um, uh, where our money is stored. You know, we use banks dayto-day and we might have pensions if we're with an employer or we might have a private
pension. And, um, there's big impacts we have indirectly in those. So about 80% of people don't know that your where you
store your money um has an impact on the climate and and sustainability more widely. But the fact is um the banks and the pension organizations
uh both invest that money that's stored with them in a whole range of good and bad things. Weapons. Weapons arms dealership. War infrastructure um u
fossil fuels drugs and things like that. So yeah, you know, thinking about sustainability, you know, the most important thing for me is the fossil
fuel industry. So, um, yeah, there's that there's that link between those and, um, yeah, completely right. There's lots of different stuff. People don't
know that. And, um, they leverage, uh, the money of course that that they have in those investments. That's one side of things. But perhaps the more empowering
thing and the more crazy thing is that actually just the customer base um, in enables them to do that. So, you're worth about 1.5 million pounds to your
bank over your lifetime. Um, there's been research done about that. And that's because as a person in, let's say, Barclays, the the worst in the UK.
Um, that enables them, the customer base and the number enables them to leverage about 1.5 million pounds per person in loans. And they choose to do that in a
whole range of ways. And um by shifting your bank to a uh a more sustainably minded one um you can shift that 1.5 million pound of leverage to uh
something with value, something with purpose. And if everyone, you know, closed their Barclays account tomorrow, they wouldn't have the money to invest
in fossil fuel companies. And these um these big banks are aren't transparent. They're they're not showing you what they're where they're spending your
money. No. And that's the that's the big benefit with some of the the sort of um more the greener ones where they're they're massively transparent and you
know where your money's going. Totally. I think transparency is a big thing. Also just sheer greenwash, you know. Um so greenwash meaning um saying saying
some things but actually the majority of their interests and action is different. So, um I can't remember the exact stats, but a lot of, you know, the the big
banks um only invest, you know, something crazy like 2 to 5% of their total um profit in green stuff and they'll shout about that, but the other
95% is spending really bad stuff. So, yeah, transparency is really important, too. So, a big shout out to, you know, if you want my personal recommendations
of what to switch to, um Triados Bank, I'm not sure if you're aware of Yeah, they're they're at the top, aren't they? They're super and they're transparent.
You can go through a list on their website of all their projects they invest in. Um they only yeah they only invest in uh social environmentally
positive things and small scale stuff. Um here in the UK probably the best um high street bank if you need a high street bank is
nationwide. They have really good policies on what they exclude their investment from. And some of the online banks are really good as well. So things
like st the mobile based so stling uh I'd recommend Monzo I'd recommend but yeah Triodos is definitely the best one and when it comes to pensions you know
we haven't talked much about that that's just about having a conversation with your pension provider because a lot will offer a green pot that you can shift
your pension to um nowadays often with um not really a difference in risk and and you know money it will accumulate over time but it's just a conversation
they automatically put it in something that may do a combination of things uh having conversation with them to go oh can I put it in this green bond instead.
That can make a lot of difference as well. So tell me what else? What else? Um, I think a really important
one and it's something everyone can do, you know, is is reconnecting to nature because um, yeah, we live in such a beautiful
world and we're part of such intricate systems and cycles and reconnecting to we're meant to, you know, we're meant to be in nature. So
reconnecting to that sense of place and uh you know the places that are important to you, the things uh the wildlife, the the plants that are
important to you. Um I think it's really important that will help ground you in what you fight for, but it will also there's so many mental health benefits
of being in nature. I mean, we talked about that with your surfing and being out in the waves. I I love the stat about how trees like release, you know,
uh imu immunity kind of chemicals when you walk in the woods. So I'm just in the woods like Yeah. it all in. So, um yeah, seeing
green as well. Like, um I remember there's a thing about like our eyes, uh our eyes find it easier to look at the color green. Um so, we have like less,
you know, tension and stress. So, when you're walking in like or if you're walking in this room with all the green plants, like you feel at ease, you feel
less stress. You mean in the jungle? In the jungle. Yeah. Is it Is this called the jungle? Yeah, this is the jungle. This is the jungle. Yeah. Thank you,
jungle. Big shout out. Um so, yeah, all those sort of things. So, re just um being being in natural spaces um has lots of mental health benefits, but also
reconnecting to those places that matter to you will help ground you in action. Um yeah, I love the phrase uh nature is responsible. Nice. Nature is responsible
for me. Nature is responsible for my physical health because I do a lot of walking. I do a lot of surfing. I do a lot of climbing hills. Um it's
responsible for my mental health. If ever I'm feeling like I need uh need to sort my head out, I'm straight out into the into the woods or uh into the ocean.
Um it's responsible for what goes on my plate. Yeah. It's responsible for what clothes I wear. It's responsible for pretty much everything that's good in my
life. Nature is responsible. That's lovely. It's a really nice metaphor. And um and I I can't um I go back to my grandparents as farmers um you know
saying that we were custodians of the land and looking after it for our future generations. Yeah. And that's something that uh I think um when when we think of
how we can look after nature, we need to think of how we can do it naturally without thinking about it rather than taking action to look after nature. We
should just be doing it intuitively. Totally. Um so that leads me nicely on to
contradiction. Nice. And we talked earlier about imperfection and um how being perfect isn't well it's not possible. No, it's it's impossible. It
is. Um and so we've all got contradictions in our world. Um you know, tell me a little bit about yours and and how do you how do you get your
head around Yeah. having these contradictions? Yeah, I'd say um yeah, I think uh a couple of contradictions in my life. Uh yeah, it's really important
to be transparent about these things. I think of late probably contradictions are I have a big gasg guzzling diesel camper van, right? Um and it's a crazy
story with that because in October 2023, two two crazy things happened to me. I got arrested for the first time and I won a camper van. You won? So I won this
camper van. Okay. In a competition in a raffle ticket. Amazing. like me and my family have always dreamed of having a camper van for camper van holidays and
just um having a bit of van life and getting out exploring. So, it was amazing time and I guess um yeah, that's added a second car to my household. It's
added a pretty hefty car to my household. It's a diesel car. Um and uh you know, I'm very passionate about using um about uh reducing single
occupancy car use and using public transport and active travel and all those things. So to suddenly throw a van in there does seem kind of
contradictory. And you know I drove here today in the van. Um and I find it really difficult sometimes because because people are really quick
to judge on that, you know. So um as soon as I won it, I I remember there were like two types of people like people just couldn't believe it. Um and
you know there were people that even said there's there's no one more deserving to win it, Jake. And that was lovely. But there's also those people
that stick out in your mind, like people I'd call close friends who would immediately go, "Oh, well Jake, that's not very sustainable. What are you doing
with that van? Are you going to scrap it? Surely that's the best thing to do with it. Why Why you Why are you driving around in your diesel van?" And it's
just Yeah. So that's a contradiction, but it spurs that other point about about Yeah. like being critical and how I think that's not helpful for
addressing things like eco anxiety. like we need to be in a place of celebratory, you know, looking looking for the positives. So, looking for the positives
in that van is um I've been able to do slow travel up to Scotland. Um I've been able to explore places and take things uh yes slower, so stay overnight. Um
things like that. It's helped other people. So, you know, my my brother and my dad have been able to use it and and bring them happiness, too. Have you been
able to um to be in nature more? I'd say so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that the ability to just um explore more of Cornwall and just get out and um and
spend longer in a place, you know, you don't have to dash there and dash back when you have a camper van. So, that's that's always really nice, too. So, I'm
interested in the um duality between um uh being able to have a camper van. Yeah. And um use more diesel. Yeah. Yeah. And improve your mental health.
Yeah. and how you can um balance that. Yeah. Um it's like taking like for example taking holidays. Um you know you come back from a holiday and you feel
refreshed and brand new and ready to uh take on the world and pro potentially be better just by having that break. Yeah. So it's a it's a trade-off, isn't it? It
is. And I think it's um I think um the means at which you might travel or go on holiday is one factor, but there's so many other things
you can think about. Like when when you said Steve about um this just needs to be natural to us. I'd like to think I kind of have that. So um you know, I
won't lie, coming here today in the van, for example, these this is what my life looks like most days is I was sat there a week ago. I spent a good half an hour,
45 minutes going, what would I have to do if I got the train and the bus to Yuki to see Steve? What would it mean for the van? Could I visit somewhere
while I'm there to make a day of it? Um would that justify taking that van? Um you know, other stuff. So, uh I had that, you know, moment of um going,
okay, if I'm going to do this, how can I maybe do it in a way that's a bit more responsible? Uh how can I use this privilege in a way that maybe gives back
a little or benefits me a bit more? things like that. And I think um yeah, the other thing I was going to say is I've just boo booked my first
international holiday for the first time in four years. I haven't flown in four years. And um yeah, similar things to that. So I'm going on safari with my dad
in in South Africa. It's been a dream of ours for ages. And um I guess uh yeah, from from the offset, I've tried to design this
trip to um be more sustainable. It's hard. So yes, I'm going to fly there. Um getting to Johannesburg by any other means seems quite difficult. Um, but I'm
going to uh, you know, I'm planning this trip. I've done a lot of research into types of lodges. Uh, whether they're smallcale, community-led, whether they
give back to those communities. Can we do walking safaris instead of driven safaris? Um, you know, how how can we reduce our impact of that holiday? Can
we stay longer um to, you know, um, make make the most of that? Is there a give back thing we can do while we're there? Um, and can we carbon offset the flight?
because as a last resort, you know, we should be doing things like that. So, I think having that critical thinking in the offset is is really important. And
uh yeah, you're right. It is really hard to Yeah. steer away from that perfectionism, but I think having that process is important. And yeah, like
like we chatted about about the benefits of mental health. I just I feel like I'm in a stage where arguably you need to see some of the world to know what needs
protecting and what what wonders are out there, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Again, it's taking you to nature. Yeah. Yeah, nature is responsible. It is. Yeah. So,
it's a nature holiday, isn't it? And um Yeah. Yeah. I think I wouldn't fly if it were any other way in terms of like, you know, I wouldn't just go for a city
break and fly there. Like, I'd go for nature to see some of these amazing habitats like congregation of the most beautiful wildlife in the world, which
which which I'm sure that will infuse you further into your sustainability career. Yeah, I'd hope so. And I think um for me it's uh it's it's come at a
time where I think I feel like in a period of flux and change in my life um where I might want to pursue some different things. I'm sort of maybe
lacking a bit of my focus on what what really drives me. And I'm looking back to nature for it because I'm a zoologologist by trade. I'm in this for
the natural world. Um and for the last 5 years it's you know been predominantly desk based stuff and people based stuff quite material. Um I'm kind of look I I
really am looking forward to go to just get a sense of perspective and get a sense of inspiration you know for what might come next in the next five years
of my life. Yeah absolutely. Yeah contradiction big contradiction. Yeah but yeah we got to be honest and open about those things and I think the
process of how we come to those decisions and yeah make it everyday conversation and um yeah could inspire people.
So this brings me to a question which I' I'd like to ask everybody is what can we do today? Yeah. What single thing can we do today? Love
that to make a better tomorrow. What single thing can we do today? Well, I think I've given a lot of things you could do but I think the crux of it is
for me come coming back to um sitting with those feelings. Uh that could be in reaction to things you see in the news, things you see in your local place,
stuff we've talked about today. Just really make space for um okay, how am I feeling in response to that? And and why am I feeling that way? Coming back to
that why? Because if we do that, you'll you'll help unlock those real core drivers and that will help you dictate what action you take, dictate um what
what change you make in the world. And it's really important for us to ground ourselves, I think, in that. So um that could be by yourself, could be quite
reflective, um could be with the help of others. But I think yeah, making space and normalizing the need to yeah detox um
and get in touch with yourself is what I'd recommend people do. Love it. Jake, thank you very much for coming on today. You're welcome. And that has brought me
slightly closer to uh searching for my greener room. Hey, nice. That's good. I'm glad. Thank you so much. And uh once again, thank you very much. Take it
easy. You have a lovely day. Thank you. That's it for this episode of Searching for a Greener Room. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Let us know what you
think, who you'd like to hear from, any topics you want us to cover. Drop us a comment. Don't forget to like and subscribe.
Evidence of what you speak
Bank.Green
A tool to instantly check whether your bank is funding fossil fuels or deforestation. He uses it in talks and highlights its impact on financial activism
Better Business Act
A movement pushing to shift UK business law from shareholder to stakeholder primacy. Rooted in the B Corp ethos, Matt urges support for this to embed long-term responsibility into business structures
Sustainable Creative Charter
Linked to GoodFest CIC, this initiative encourages creatives to embed sustainability in their practice. It’s both a pledge and a practical framework
The Path of the Doer by David Hieatt
A short, picture-rich book from the founder of the Do Lectures. Matt praises it for its focus on action and the idea that good ideas are common, but action is rare
You Can’t Make Money on a Dead Planet by Mark Shayler
Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth by Buckminster Fuller
Both are cited as foundational texts. The former links finance to planetary survival. The latter offers a systems view of humanity’s role as stewards of Earth
People of inspiration
John OBrien founder of Anthropy,
Hugo Tagholm, Oceana,
John Brown CEO of Cornwall Chamber of Commerce,
Kalpana Arias founder of Symbociene,
our LEAP team,
my 18 an d19 year old daughters GRace and Esme,
cutting their own groove and pathfinding in life.
So many past, present, near and far. Some simply from myths of old. Others like my fellow brothers in A Band of Brothers.
Always my incredible yin to my yang GEorgie Upton.
Actions
switch your bank to one that's not supporting fossil fuels and deforestation. Go to www.bank.green You don't have to do everything. Do one thing well, get in the habit, make it your new normal, then do something more. Believe and act on it. The media would have us think otherwise. We need to imagination that better tomorrow. And then build it. You, I, we aren't alone. Gratitude, to yourself, to others, to this life. Do something, rather than nothing, no matter how small. We can all look after our patch. Think global, act hyperlocal.
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